Can't Believe This...

I was just looking at my e-mail on my Hotmail account. And whenever you logout it'll kick you over to the msn.com homepage. And while I was checking out some of the headlines I noticed this picture:



Under the heading of "plus-sized fashions."

THAT is plus-sized? She is plus-sized? Are you kidding me? That is a gorgeous, healthy looking young woman, she is not plus-sized. And just because she has breasts and hips doesn't make her plus-sized.

Now I know that thanks to Hollywood the line on what is skinny these days and what isn't is pretty skewed from where it used to be, but if she is plus-sized then Serena Williams is morbidly obese. I mean this is just ridiculous.

THAT is what I want my women to look like. Like they've had a meal or two in their lifetime. Not one of these bony assed sick looking skeletons that fashion designers think are glamorous. It really bothers me when I see this because it sends such a bad message to the young girls growing up today. Plus-sized is code for overweight and that woman is anything but. But when a young girl sees a woman like that under the caption "Plus-sized" and she looks like her, she is going to think she's fat when she isn't and it pisses me off.

I think this model is smoking hot. And an ideal example of the kind of woman I am attracted to.

Welcome to the reality of the situation, Whit.

Seriously, women's sizing has been like this for quite some time.

Here's one of the problems: arbitrary sizing.

See, men don't know how good they have it, as far as buying clothing goes. You go to a store and get measured for pants. The measurement is, say, 40-32. Anywhere you go, be it Wal-Mart, Saks, Men's Warehouse, wherever, it doesn't matter. You will always be a 40-32. Men's sizing is based on actual measurements. Every single piece of clothing designed and constructed for a man's body is created from a measurement.

Women's clothing (which, not surprisingly, was first made by men) isn't. A standard of beauty is set, and then clothing is made to fit it. A 12 or 14 at Lane Bryant can very easily be an 18 or 20 at Old Navy. Women's sizing will never become uniform because the current system does exactly what it's designed to do, which is make us feel uncertain about ourselves so that we'll be neurotic and crazy about our sizes and spend more money at places that placate us by sizing larger.

Once upon a time, it was hot to be bigger. It was cool to have curves. Art history is littered with periods of time when standards of beauty were full of beautiful, curvy women. It was a sign of wealth; a woman who was well-fed had curves. Clothing was designed to make women look like they had larger breasts and behinds because they wanted to look prosperous to attract the best kind of men.

The 1920's were the first real modern instance of a script flip. Suddenly, it was hip to have no hips; boy bodies were all the rage, and androgeny was the rule of the day. Women with curves were ostracized. They wore all manner of undergarments to bind down their chests and hips to fit the standard. It came back around in the 40's again after the war. It was good to have money again, and pinups became the thing. Pinup models weren't always perfect either; some were even a little on the chubby side. But they always had curves.

Permanent turnaround came in the 60's, when white liberal guilt took a stranglehold on the nation. It became a really bad thing to have money, and carrying weight made you look like you had money. It was better to look like you were starving because it meant that you made sacrifices for the greater good. It hasn't let up since. I think that's a large source of the "obesity epidemic." People are sick and tired of being made to feel guilty because we enjoy eating and living, and the kickback from it has been severe.

Models are stick thin because they're supposed to look like living mannequins, so people notice the clothing and not the person it's on. There's been a lot of backlash lately though. I know that most of my girlfriends and I no longer give a crap. I would rather be a "size 16" and be healthy, happy, enjoying what I eat and wearing clothes that look good on me, than be a "size 12" and constantly be hungry. My goal is just to be healthy, whatever size I am, plus or no.

Sizing in women's clothing is bunk.

Larry's "plus size" woman is a babe. Yeah, buddy! She could come on a fishing trip with me any time.

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A 12 or 14 at Lane Bryant can very easily be an 18 or 20 at Old Navy.

Like you ladies aren't going to try everything on at least twice anyway? Big deal.

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Women's sizing will never become uniform because the current system does exactly what it's designed to do, which is make us feel uncertain about ourselves so that we'll be neurotic and crazy about our sizes and spend more money at places that placate us by sizing larger.

Are you saying that some retailers will take a size 16 from any other store and scale it to be a size 12 at their store, thus attracting woman who care about what size they can say they wear?

I don't buy it. Clothing manufacturers would constantly be trying to size undercut each other. Size skewing would take place across the board to pacify large ladies. I gained 10 pounds and went down two sizes! WOO-HOO! Normal sized women would be wearing size 0, and slim chicks would be in the negatives.

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standards of beauty were full of beautiful, curvy women. It was a sign of wealth; a woman who was well-fed had curves.

I *think* Mexico is still like that. Maybe we could have an exchange. They can send us all their starving crack whores and we could ship them all of our Bon Bon Thunderchunks.

Maybe plus-sized as in she's like "8 feet tall". No one is standing next to her, hard to tell. I love the fact that you posted this, though. This is awesome.

Interesting.

I did a Google search for "male dominated society's unrealistic modern standard for the ideal feminine figure" and this came back.

Skeletor is such an odd body of work. Here's a guy with a skull as his only part of his head. He speaks fine without the use of his tongue. And somehow this guy is able to eat and workout quite a bit through out the day to have sculpted muscles like that....and his body is blue...one f'ed up dude....

Nice observations, Ryan Madden. Maybe he appears to have only a skull and blue body because uh...because he's a fuc**** fictional cartoon.

I'm really attracted to cussing on this board. I don't know why cos I definitely have never been a regular user of the f-bomb unless I felt the need for a shock value statement or to make a point. I think it's all those different "smiley" faces to the left when you're posting a message. They all look at you and it immediately makes me wanna punch my screen.

It's also really easy to be discreet at work with a hundred smileys on your screen. I miss the old board when it comes to that.

meathorse wrote:

Like you ladies aren't going to try everything on at least twice anyway? Big deal.

And so what if I do? I try things on more than once to make sure I like it, because clothes aren't cheap and I can't afford to buy things I'm not going to wear. You might have that kind of disposable income, but I don't, so suck on it.

I shouldn't have to try things on more than once to make sure they fit too. I hate shopping, and I don't want to have to spend any more time in a store than necessary.

meathorse wrote:

Are you saying that some retailers will take a size 16 from any other store and scale it to be a size 12 at their store, thus attracting woman who care about what size they can say they wear?

I don't buy it. Clothing manufacturers would constantly be trying to size undercut each other. Size skewing would take place across the board to pacify large ladies.

What I'm saying is that each women's clothing manufacturer decides for themselves what sizes they're going to put on their clothes. Sometimes they're close, but many times they aren't. Trust me; I'm a size 14/16 in some stores and an 18/20 in others.

Size undercutting for large women isn't going to happen, because of what I said later on. The society we live in is geared toward making "larger" women feel guilty about their enjoyment of food and life. We're not skinny, so we're not making sacrifices for the greater good. The more we can deprive ourselves, the better, because obviously we have control.

Not saying that all large women are healthy, but those of us who are don't appreciate the implication that we're greedy pigs with no self control just because you can't see our ribs.

I really couldn't care less what size is on the tags in my clothing. I exercise and I eat my fruits and veggies, but I'm not afraid to enjoy my food. I will never be a tiny girl. Even when I was leaner I wasn't tiny. I like butter, and red meat, and good wine, and cheese, and chocolate. I eat when I'm hungry, I stop when I'm full, and I never feel guilty about having dessert. I enjoy myself and my life, and my ass fills my pants. I have it all.

whodeygal wrote:

I really couldn't care less what size is on the tags in my clothing. I exercise and I eat my fruits and veggies, but I'm not afraid to enjoy my food. I will never be a tiny girl. Even when I was leaner I wasn't tiny. I like butter, and red meat, and good wine, and cheese, and chocolate. I eat when I'm hungry, I stop when I'm full, and I never feel guilty about having dessert. I enjoy myself and my life, and my ass fills my pants. I have it all.

That's what I'm talking about baby!!

Fill out them jeans girl!! Bow chicka wow wow

I blame women for the problem. Men have it easy because men make it easy for themselves. Women could do the same and just start sizing their clothes like men do. It would take demand from female consumers.

That's a lovely, well-reasoned response you got there, Coop. Nice to see that the stereotype that men are always rational and women never make any sense is alive and well.

I do what I can, one day at a time.

Ha! This is getting fun!

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And so what if I do? I try things on more than once to make sure I like it, because clothes aren't cheap and I can't afford to buy things I'm not going to wear. You might have that kind of disposable income, but I don't, so suck on it.

One of us misunderstood the other. You complained, on a basic level, that men's sizing is based on hard numbers, and women's are just made up... so you never really know what size you are. I replied that it doesn't matter because women love trying everything in the whole damn store on anyway, so you'll get the sizing figured out with no extra effort. Ha ha. I'm funny.

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I hate shopping

Marry me.

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The society we live in is geared toward making "larger" women feel guilty about their enjoyment of food and life.

Oh Whodey. I never thought we'd fight. But you're off yer rocker!

How? How besides the unbearable injustice of inconsistent clothing sizes is society slighting the Big Girl? Do people actually come up to fat chicks in restaurants and say "Ohhh.... are you sure you don't want the salad?"

Outside of modeling, or acting, or Cosmo, where are the big girls shunned? Because if that's it, it's not just a girl thing. There ain't no fat guy models, or fat actors outside of comedians (and even then they end up making jokes about how fat they are), no chubbies in Maxim either. In the entertainment world women are thin and guys are muscular. So why doesn't a pudgy weakling like myself feel the same way as you? Is it just because my pants fit?

I'm just going to continue and sit and watch this one

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You complained, on a basic level, that men's sizing is based on hard numbers, and women's are just made up... so you never really know what size you are. I replied that it doesn't matter because women love trying everything in the whole damn store on anyway, so you'll get the sizing figured out with no extra effort. Ha ha. I'm funny.

No, I think I got it. It does matter, because not every woman likes trying on everything in the store. That's a crap ass stereotype and I can't believe that you're going to play to it and expect this to be a rational discussion. I don't like being stereotyped. You'd think you'd realize that by now. I hang out on a sports board with a bunch of men; clearly I defy a lot of stereotypes and that's not going to fly with me.

When I go shopping I will look at everything, but then I pick out what I like and I take it to the fitting room to make sure it looks as good on me as it does on the rack. That's fine. What I do not like is when my half-hour shopping trip becomes a 90-minute shopping trip because I have to try on three different sizes to make sure I have the right one. That's crap. And currently in women's clothing, that's the reality of the situation. It simply is.

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There ain't no fat guy models, or fat actors outside of comedians (and even then they end up making jokes about how fat they are)

James Gandolfini, Dennis Franz, Alec Baldwin (he looks like a blowfish these days)...shall I continue? Men don't need to be perfect to have jobs in Hollywood. They can be chubby, bald, ugly (Steve Buscemi looks like he got the business end of a chipper-shredder, and he's a very rich man right now) and still get work. Women who fall outside of the norm tend not to. There is room for a couple, and then that's it.

Look, I don't see myself as a victim. I have no desire to be a model, or an actress, or be on the cover of Maxim. I think women who do Maxim are low on self-respect. That's just my opinion.

But I've seen my share of fat shaming. There are always little comments here and there. I know plenty of men who always have something subtle to say about a big girl. I remember a couple of guys I used to know, neither of them swimsuit models by ANY stretch of the imagination, who used to refer to a girl who lived in their building as "The Obeast." I have encountered plenty of men who tip the scales in the neighborhood of 300 pounds easy who wouldn't touch a girl over 200 if you paid them. When I turned 18 and finished filling out, reaching a serious wide-load weight of 165 pounds (I am about 5'7" and I never look like I weigh as much as I do), my late grandfather, who was no small man, and who came from an entire family of big, beautiful women, remarked that I was "gettin' kinda heavy." And he and my grandmother treated my mother, a woman of very similar build to me, like shit because of her size. They preferred her baby sister, who is much smaller.

Don't try to play me like it's not out there. Because it is.

It's definitely out there, but I think there has also been a lot of skinny shaming on this board for about two months.

I do not participate in skinny shaming. I participate in skeletal shaming. There's a difference.

Besides, two wrongs don't make a right, but my mother always used to say don't dish it out if you can't take it.

Yea, I've stayed out of these discussions since the beginning. I feel like this is the third time Larry's has brought up women's sizes on the board. I am in Sports Talk Underground, right?

But you're in the "Off the Subject" forum. In the "Off the Subject" forum, no one can hear you disparage skinny chicks. Or fat ones, for that matter.

True. But I'm about ready to set up a section called "I don't like Skinny Chicks." It seems to get brought up once every 3 weeks....

Or maybe we should just make Whit change his handle to "IDontLikeSkinnyChicks." Simple, concise, and we all know where he stands on the subject.

I have a statement and a question:

(1) Whatever floats your boat when it comes to what you want to look like or what you want your significant other to look like. Love is blind. Or...lust is in the eye of the whatever, etc. etc.

(2) Larry, do you read at all? Any book recommendations?

Thanks. I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

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That's a crap ass stereotype and I can't believe that you're going to play to it and expect this to be a rational discussion. I don't like being stereotyped. You'd think you'd realize that by now.

Following something blatantly inflammatory with "Ha ha. I'm funny." does a good job of illustrating my intent (and lack of seriousness). I have a bad habit of finding specific things that bother a specific person and hitting it again and again and again for my own sick amusement! I understand that it's genuinely irritating, but I just can't stop.

On a related note...

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When I go shopping I will look at everything

Everything? Just like a woman...

Strictly from the clothing standpoint I agree with you. Women's clothing sizes are bunk. Although, in fairness I still have to try on pants. Depending on the style I'm either a 38 or 36 waist. Although, by now it's probably 38 or 40. Either way, finding clothes that fit is no cakewalk for me either, sister :)

However, your "The man is trying to keep fat chicks down" conspiracy theory is also bunk! I do not buy it, and obviously we're not going to come to terms on this.

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James Gandolfini, Dennis Franz, Alec Baldwin (he looks like a blowfish these days)...shall I continue?

If you want to flaunt the exceptions to the rule go right ahead. I can do that too. Queen Latifah, Rosie O'Donnell and to a much lesser extent Rene Zellweger. I only bring Rene up because she actually gained weight for her romantic parts in Bridget Jones. For the record, no, I don't think she's fat.

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Steve Buscemi looks like he got the business end of a chipper-shredder

Was that a Fargo joke? Very clever
Buscemi does not apply. He isn't fat.