Odd Things You're Proud Of...and 2008 pres discussion...

Again, I have no allegiances to parties so Justin brought up the Dems-poor thing which I think is off base too.

Here's my take - To me Republicans use Christian groups for support by offering a chance to reverse Roe v. Wade. Republicans have been getting votes for this for around 30 years. These particular voters vote solely on this. They also now have the gay marriage laws to use on these people and more. Once again they will conveniently make sure there is a vote on whether gay marriage should be legal during the same election as the presidential one. Forget the other 225 things you need to consider. It drives me insane.

Democrats have been doing the same thing...only longer. Do they really help the poor at the end of the day? Some have the right idea, but my feeling are the Democrats get "ppor" people to vote for them every election based on , "Hey, we're democrats and we want to tax the upper 1% so we care about you poor folks." Well, I DO Think the upper 1% could give a little more back to the country that made it possible for them to be that rich. But what does this accomplish in the end? Haven't seen any poor person arise from the bottom because he/she got an extra $1,200 on their tax refund. Both parties get votes based on ideals that they really don't make any changes in.

I think the discussion for whodey and I is simply whodey thinks Bush has done a nice job in office and I think he has done a downright awful job. I really have been refraining from writing my 101 reasons why I think he has been horrible, but I feel like I'm on the verge of a 3 hour post. At the end of the day I'm not changing whodey's mind ever, and she's got way too much convincing to change mine. We can point fingers at both parties and I agree with that. And we can all say congress runs the country, but to me W displays poor leadership. The way he has treated his fight in Iraq compared to showing really even any compassion to New Orleans after the hurricane came through was embarrassing. I've had some major issues with that debacle. No president was going to be able to snap his fingers and make things right, but he basically ignored the situation as far as any federal aid for days or for that matter showing up down there to lift some spirits. But you DAMN better believe ol' G W wants to have this thumb raised in the air with a "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" sign behind him. We all know now how big of a joke that was. He really wouldn't have been able to pull that off with New Orleans as his background huh?

As for the war, I was never for it, but wasn't completely outraged when we did it. I didn't see why we were puttin our main focus there and not finding bin laden, but whatever. I met many families who have lost their loved ones. Each and every story deserves to be heard from these people. American lives absolutely ruined for a war that I still cringe about as far as all the reasons of why we are there. And now later, Kylene probably has to go through something far worse than I did when I did the news and that deal with these people that have been as close to fatally injured as possible. And once again, by God we'll keep making sure we pump money in Iraq, but we'll all be damned if we start pumping money into the VA system to take care of these people that gave up their lives essentially for this country and George W Bush. There are so many injured soldiers with needs and we conveniently don't have "the funds" to make things right over here. Bullshit.

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whodey thinks Bush has done a nice job in office

I don't actually remember her saying that :)

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I really have been refraining from writing my 101 reasons why I think he has been horrible, but I feel like I'm on the verge of a 3 hour post.

Oh my... you mean... you could go on for even longer? I'm out of here :)

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The way he has treated his fight in Iraq compared to showing really even any compassion to New Orleans after the hurricane came through was embarrassing.

Compassion? That's what you want? Gag me again! Is that what we needed? Someone to feel our pain and force fake tears on TV?

Bullshit hippie pain feeling aside... Jebus Criggidy! Stop blaming Katrina on G freakin' W. And before you say it, stop blaming the aftermath on him too. Virtually everything was the locals' fault.

For the love of god don't make me defend him again!

Did I once "blame" Katrina on Bush? No. Apparently this would be you putting words into my mouth. Do I think afterwards he turned his back on the situation? Yes.

Obviously, sides were already taken on this stuff before a post began and its clear where everyone stands on stuff. I've commented a bit on both parties, but I think its funny you'll only nitpick at a couple sentences I bring up and not mention anything about the valid points. But its clear none of my points are valid and everything whodey says is law so I guess I lose. Back to football.

Holy Moly kids! Looks like I've missed a lot. I'll refrain from getting wrapped up in any political debate here as I am a life long Republican. I will say that I have been disappointed with President Bush overall as a voter. WhoDey, you sound like you could give Sean Hannity a run for his money! Ryan, I think you've made some good points as well. There's nothing wrong with being independent and thinking that both parties drop the ball. They do. Maybe to get this back on topic all Ryan was saying is that he didn't vote for Bush three times which is a rare feat. The fact he voted on a Republican card and voted for McCain and then Dem the next two times is probably something that not that many people have done. It is pretty uniqiue. He's proud of it. Let him eat his cake if he wants to.

Ryan Simmons wrote:

Again, I have no allegiances to parties so Justin brought up the Dems-poor thing which I think is off base too. .

Both parties have their stereotypes and history. I was addressing the Republicans' "God party" issue. But obviously, you know your political ideologies as you demonstrated so you know where I was coming from there. I don't hold a Democrat allegiance. Both parties haven't followed through on their "ideals" or how they'd change things (boy, it's a good thing we have a Democrat-controlled Congress to get us out of Iraq, right? Oh damn, not so much). The last thing I want to be called is liberal. The only thing worse would be being called conservative. It's just that I've had to put up with Bush the past eight years and I'm tired of him for reasons we've already discussed and for so many other reasons we haven't. I actually think it's more common for people to be somewhere in the middle rather than clearly stating they are 100% either way. Good to see where we all stand, though.

Ryan Simmons wrote:

Did I once "blame" Katrina on Bush? No. Apparently this would be you putting words into my mouth.

No, you didn't actually blame the physical creation of a tropical cyclone on G W Bush. I apologize.

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Obviously, sides were already taken on this stuff before a post began and its clear where everyone stands on stuff.

You set the tone on that yourself. Pages of Bush Bashing, and pride at doing so. That puts me off and I end up on his side. I don't even like the guy.

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I've commented a bit on both parties, but I think its funny you'll only nitpick at a couple sentences I bring up and not mention anything about the valid points.

I'm not allowed to talk about what I don't like without stroking you over the things I agree with first? There's way too much input here for me to process, lots of which I don't have any knowledge about. The "Bush dropped the ball on Katrina" thing isn't nitpicking. It's a much talked about and widely held opinion that I do not agree with. It's the local government's responsibility first. They dropped the ball ahead of time and created a situation that was impossible to manage.

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But its clear none of my points are valid and everything whodey says is law so I guess I lose.

You lose? I much enjoy my status as the tiebreaker. It's an odd situation. I am most definitely not a Bush fan, yet I can't agree with you on most of your points.

"No, you didn't actually blame the physical creation of a tropical cyclone on G W Bush. I apologize."


I actually do think he physically started that hurricane. Him and Cheney both. That sounds like something that would be on Coast to Coast with Art Bell. Ever listen to that? They talk about a bunch of paranormal things. UFO's, ghosts, bigfoot, government spying, secret socities, etc. It's on late at night, definitely on XM, probably on your local AM radio somewhere. You should give it a listen. It's pretty funny but honest to God, I heard the scariest ghost story I've ever heard in my entire life on that show. What were we talking about again? Oh right. The physical creation of a hurricane by human beings. Um...so how bout that show "Lil Bush" on Comedy Central? That's hilarious and sadly accurate.

Back in the day they tried dropping tons and tons of dry ice into the ocean to weaken hurricanes. It didn't work. Guess it's easier to make 'em than break 'em!

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They talk about a bunch of paranormal things. UFO's, ghosts, bigfoot, government spying

I hear the US Government recruited the ghost of Bigfoot to fly stealth UFOs over Moscow in the 60s.

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My point was that it's impossible for anyone else to be like Jesus and expect to be able to do what he did in every aspect of their lives. And that any inkling of thinking you are is ignorant.

See, I don’t think that’s ignorant at all. In the nondenominational tradition in which I was raised, that was actually the whole point of a relationship with Christ, to be as like Him as possible. We are to work our hardest to overcome the inherent corruption born in us via original sin to become as Christ-like as we can, which was God’s original design for humanity. So asking yourself what He would do, in a truly selfless fashion, is a great thing. We may not be able to perform the heavy-duty miracles, but some of the greatest things that Christ ever did for us when He walked the earth were simply to love and listen and truly care. Those were the miracles that changed the most lives.

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BTW, blessings aren't handed out on a "deserving" basis. This is another common misconception. I just wanted to add that part.

I’m pretty sure no one ever said that. Least of all me, because there’s not a single one of us on this earth that “deserve” blessings. That’s the whole point of grace. But I will say that having a relationship with God makes it more likely that you will receive, or at least recognize, His blessings.

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There are people who can't help the situation they find themselves in.

I agree. It’s what you do to get out of a situation that truly defines you. The idea that someone who is poor should simply wait for everyone else to take care of them is condescending, in my opinion. It says that people who are in less than ideal situations are incapable of putting in the work to get out of them, which is untrue. A foolish man waits on others to solve his problems; a wise man does the work for himself. Part of that is asking for help when he needs it, but the best help is knowledge, not a handout. And I find the idea of taking from people who have worked to get what they have to boost the poor to be a bad one. Imploring them to give is one thing; removing the choice is another.

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He has ACTUALLY gone on record as saying that "God told him to invade Iraq". This came from him.

I fail to understand why this is such a crazy thing. A man’s relationship with God is between him and God. Is it the fact that he believes that he speaks to God and God speaks back? Because if that’s what it is, I’m crazy too. A relationship with the Lord is for anyone who seeks it, not just for priests and ministers. Or is it the fact that you’d think that God would never tell someone to declare war, because that’s happened too. In a perfect world there would be no war; but this world isn’t perfect. Getting rid of terrorism with hugs isn’t going to happen; the evil in some of these men is beyond that. Sometimes there is no other way. I’m not saying that he was right or wrong. I’m just saying that sometimes fighting is unavoidable.

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whodey thinks Bush has done a nice job in office

I never said that. I just don’t believe that it’s been the fiery train wreck that others do, that’s all. In football terms, it’s like the QB. As the public face of the team, he gets way more credit than he should when things go well, and he gets way more blame than he should when things go poorly. It’s easy to blame everything that goes wrong on him, but I find that to be too simple. There’s a whole roster full of people who put in their work too. I just think that politics, like a great many other things in this life, has its shades of grey.

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The "Bush dropped the ball on Katrina" thing isn't nitpicking. It's a much talked about and widely held opinion that I do not agree with. It's the local government's responsibility first. They dropped the ball ahead of time and created a situation that was impossible to manage.

I agree with that. I will even go so far as to say that residents of the city should have been asking the questions about situational preparedness too. If you live on the coast, it’s impossible to ignore that you are susceptible to weather conditions there. It would be like living in San Francisco and ignoring the fact that you’re in an earthquake zone. Questions of how emergencies will be handled are not just on the shoulders of the government. Everyone in the city should be aware, and prepared, because it effects them all.

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But its clear none of my points are valid and everything whodey says is law so I guess I lose.

Oh come on, Simmons. You know that’s not true. I think your points are valid. If I didn’t, I’d have ignored you from the start. While it’s true that there are some things I disagree with, these are still important things that are worth discussing. You’re right that we may not change each other’s minds, but not discussing these things at all guarantees that no one’s mind will be changed.

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Or is it the fact that you’d think that God would never tell someone to declare war, because that’s happened too.

How about if God tells you to start a war, you say "What!? f**k you, God!"
Odd analogy incoming! If I were a kid, and my dad told me to stab my brother, I probably wouldn't do it.

One of the biggest problems in the history of religion is the ease with which it can be manipulated by us to justify killing each other.

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Getting rid of terrorism with hugs isn’t going to happen

Hmm.... it might if we tried hugging the right people.

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I’m not saying that he was right or wrong. I’m just saying that sometimes fighting is unavoidable.

Oh... ok. Sure sounded like you were saying he was right, though :)

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I will even go so far as to say that residents of the city should have been asking the questions about situational preparedness too. If you live on the coast, it’s impossible to ignore that you are susceptible to weather conditions there.

Absolutely. Wasn't anyone looking at Florida and taking notes?

I never said the locals or the local and state gov't did a good job. I've just told you my opinion on W's lack of attention to New Orleans. I would find it hard to argue that Bush has given the attention it deserves, but I guess I'd be willing to hear that one. Again, not blaming the entire thing on him, but at the same time I can unfortunately only assume his father, Clinton, and Reagan would have given it much more of their time in office.

whodeygal wrote:

A man’s relationship with God is between him and God.

You bet it is. And you can also bet he wanted that story to break about God "telling" him to "draw a line in the sand" and dare Democrats to "question God". That's how I took it. Could I use more quotes there?

However, our enemies think their God is calling them to kill us...

I'm certainly not questioning defending ourselves. I'm questioning focusing on one country that just happens to be rich in oil. Then we spread our beliefs there and "force" them on democracy.

Do you know what would happen if another country invaded the U.S. and started ramming their beliefs down our throats? We'd blow them to pieces. Then we'd go to their country and probably wipe them off the face of the Earth. I mean...I'm really interested in how history will judge G. W. Bush.

Alright, I don't have time to answer every other thing but even if I don't agree with you on a lot of things, I do respect it. Back to Sports- er Football Talk Underground.

Ryan Simmons wrote:

I never said the locals or the local and state gov't did a good job. I've just told you my opinion on W's lack of attention to New Orleans. I would find it hard to argue that Bush has given the attention it deserves, but I guess I'd be willing to hear that one. Again, not blaming the entire thing on him, but at the same time I can unfortunately only assume his father, Clinton, and Reagan would have given it much more of their time in office.

In 1992 I lived in Homestead FL. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_andrew
Good times!
I was going to make some "Government bad, people good" points based on my personal experiences... but I was only 12. And after some thinking I realized that when you're 12, you don't really pay attention to any of that shit :) All I knew at the time was that I was hot and there was busted stuff all over the place.

After a bit of Google digging, I found this wonderful little article. It's quite lengthy but worth reading in full. 5 stars!
http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/man/12/0.html

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Hmm.... it might if we tried hugging the right people.

Sure babe; you go sing "Kumbaya" with Bin Laden and Friends, and you let me know how that turns out.

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I'm questioning focusing on one country that just happens to be rich in oil.

Okay, so what about Afghanistan? Last I checked, there was no oil there.

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Then we spread our beliefs there and "force" them on democracy.

If it's either that or a nutbag who gasses his own people to maintain power, I would guess that folks might want something a little more democratic. I'm just sayin'.

Being proud that you did not vote for the current sitting president has become a popular American parlor game. I resemble this remark. I have voted for only one winning candidate in 8 Presidential elections. I love underdogs I guess. Fortunately, that strategy works better in football and basketball than in elections.

Here is a relevant trivia question. Who was the first presidential candidate who inspired the...
"Don't Blame Me, I Voted For ______________" bumper stickers?

I know the answer. I owned one.

Who is George McGovern?

He's the guy that got smoked by Nixon.

EDIT: Oh wait... I get it... f**k you, Trebek!

I really miss his bitchin' mustache...



What?

That's a very good guess, Ryan, and it would make sense considering Nixon was impeached less than two years after the 72 election. But it's not correct.

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"Don't Blame Me, I Voted For ______________" bumper stickers?

It's either Jimmy Buffett or Sanjaya. I haven't decided yet.

I was thinking Clay Aiken.

I have kept off this topic, but I have never voted for any American president

Hell, over here I have voted in every election since I was 18 and have never managed to vote for the winner, admittedly I have always voted for the same party.

Anyway is the answer Kodos?

rockhoppers, looks like I am on a paralell path over here in the states then

Indeed - my knowledge of your system is shaky (to say the least) and in my simplest terms I don't like the fact that no matter what it is a rich guy that will win with the backing of big industry why should they give a toss about the people Don't get me wrong our system is less than ideal, more about who your family is - scrap the Royal Family and the House of Lords and give us two elected houses. But there we go

For what it is worth I am a member of the Liberal Democrats over here - but don't let that fool you into thinking I am a Democrat (I might be I just don't know it). I am a firm believer in the welfare state, our national health service is far from ideal but no matter what you can get treatment for free, pensioners get enough money to live on and schools are funded by the state not by Coca Cola or McDonalds (although that is changing now)

People over here need to get over their pathetic hangups about Europe and pound sterling and embrace the European Union and go from there. Unfortunately we are stuck in the past and the British Empire and distrust all things foreign, hence everybody from where I live are Conservative (or Republican in those lines) and vote for less taxes and screw the freeloaders. It makes me sad but come election time people think about their wallet and what the media tells them to think - personalities not politics.

Man - that must be my longest post yet sorry _ I guess not many off you care about UK politics and even less so on my thoughts on them but there we go.

Does Dick Cheney have an actual human heart anymore? I think he survives off Burger King grease. Like one of those "fast food" vehicles. Whenever he gets really grumpy, he just bathes in deep fry oil.

Then GW probably licks it off him.

Sick bastards.

Random comment. :)